Is it Wrong to Download Season Two?

[N4H]

Sometimes a television series comes out on one side of the Atlantic, and the people on whichever opposing shore have to wait a year, or more to see it. Some have found a workaround to that. They download the episodes over the internet. Is that wrong?

The network's position seems to be if people watch it before it's televised they won't watch it when it is. The local broadcasts won't want future seasons. They will be cheated out of revenue, thus depriving them of cash needed to produce quality programming.

Is that true though? I don't think so. Take Doctor Who Season Two, for example. Everyone I talk to on the North American side who is downloading season two is also planning to watch it when it's televised. A respectable chunk of them also plan to buy the DVD as well. On top of that there is a good buzz for Season Two developing. Those of us who have seen S 2 will bring others with us when we finally get a chance to see it on television. New fans will be created. You just watch, not only won't the ratings for Doctor Who be hurt. They'll rise.

Now if the season was junk, the Beeb might have a point in not wanting it downloaded. People would see a few eps, stop downloading, and never tune in for the television screening. Also they'd tell 2 friends, and they'd tell 2 friends and so on, and so on...

So to me that's what it's really all about. It's not that they're worried about us seeing something of excellence like Doctor Who season 2. The networks on both sides of the Atlantic don't want to establish a precedent whereby they will find it difficult to inflict their garbage on overseas viewers, and make a quick buck, before anyone finds out how bad whatever it is is. They don't want us to know about stuff like Hex Season 2 until we get it.

[prydain]

Hmm well it's ILLEGAL to download season two, technically, but it's up to an individual on whether they think it really is wrong.

Personally, I'm not opposed to downloading, if it's not available through commercial means. If a studio refuses to release a show on DVD, if a network cancels a show, doesn't show the unaired episodes, and they become available overseas and then the net, it's the fault of the people who own it. When people tune in to see a show they want to see the whole thing, if companies want to cut down on downloading they shouldn't screw their customers.

Also, for me, a company is more likely to get my money because of downloading. I've started watching several shows on TV and DVD because of it.

[N4H]

I grok your point Prydain. Take for example Tim Minear's The Inside. Fox never televised the final 6 episodes. They refuse to release the full 13 on DVD. This creates a situation where even Tim Minear - who actually made the series - advises his fans to download the episodes online. He says so here -

http://drive-tv.blogspot.com/

[prydain]

Yeah so did the creator of "Miracles", well he didn't tell fans to but he said he didn't blame them.

Speaking of Minear I hope FOX picks up "Drive".

[N4H]

Speaking of Minear I hope FOX picks up "Drive".

Wanna discuss it?

Drive thread at Buffy-Boards (http://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=24428)

[Bored of the Dead]

See we have two separate arguments here that both need addressing.
First of all, the downloading of a show thats on air, continuing to be made and DVD's being sold.
Your argument is actually flawed about the 'tell 2 people'.
The shows are determined, for the most part, on air in original country, mixed with other factors, on whether they are sent overseas or not.
Take Dr Who as the Example.
This show, has been a veritable juggernaut on BBC 1 on a Saturday Night. Its ratings have been phenomenal for its time slot, thus its this that has opened the key potential for overseas selling(mixed with a previous success).
Had the show bombed spectacularly, then no doubt it wouldn't even have been considered.
Your other argument regarding The North American side downloading. Again, not really a good argument.
For a start, unless you have a good cross sectioon of friends which go to numbers in the tens of thousands, then you are not getting or giving a worthy percentage and portrayal of data.
The few that do download the show, i'd not be comfortable suggesting a number, though i'd certainly not go higher then 100 - which in terms of figures in the region of 8m in the UK is 0.0000125% which you can see is not substancial enough to make any kind of comment, and express a desire to watch the show AND buy the DVD could be part of a minority, that is a coincidence of where you met them.
The average person who downloads a TV show who doesn't generally talk much online, would they do the same? You cannot answer that with your small basis for comparison.

Say you have seen Dr Who. When it is broadcast as a premiere on American TV, you notice something on another channel you wish to watch. In regular circumstances, had you not seen Dr Who, that would have been your priority, however this other show, you do want to see, you give priority so you miss that episode. What happens if this is a series, you don't mind it, you have the Dr Who episodes on your computer so does it really matter if you miss it on TV...no. Yuou can watch that other show thats series is continuing. Now, what if loads more people do this?

Now, the second topic. Shows that have been cancelled and have no option for DVDrelease and will never be broadcast again in any country(not enough for any form of syndication), or episodes lost that will never be seen conventionally.
This I would agree with, to an extent.
The Internet being the marvellous place that it is, has the ability to air these programs often. I would think it in the best interest to start a website dedicated to these shows, charge a small fee to join and allow these episodes to have their play.
It would be easy to maintain and relatively cheap. as long as the shows kept being updated, or replayed and the fee was used to 'staff' them then i'm sure it would be cool.
But I do agree with the fact that it is illegal to download something that has yet to be braodcast officially in a country and/or DVD's.

[N4H]

You're facts are wrong, but your point is valid.

There's a common misconception about North America. It is not made up of one country. The North American country I live in is called Canada. The British Doctor Who ratings meant nothing as far as whether or not the CBC was going to purchase Doctor Who. We were watching Doctor Who Season 1 one week after the first Doctor Who episode aired in Britain. We saw the Christmas episode right around Christmas. I believe it may have been before Christmas. I'm not sure, but I think the CBC may have had kicked some money in on the production that's why we got it early.

I, like yourself, am not sure how many people in North America download Doctor Who. I am confident the number is considerably higher than 100. Go here (http://isohunt.com/torrents.php?ihq=doctor%20who&ts). it is a site in the public domain, and therefore legal. I found it by googling. Click on today's episode. At the point of this writing I notice there are 811 seeds on the single torrent available. That means at least 811 people have the file. If 811 people have the file downloaded, there should be at least double that leeching (otherwise known as downloading) it at this time. Seeders and leechers will increase as the night progresses. This is one torrent from one torrent tracker. I'm going to estimate there will be at least 10 episode 12 torrents at this tracker by tommorrow morning. There are perhaps hundreds of trackers. I don't know exactly how many unique torrent streams that translates into, but I'm going to guess a lot. These are just torrents. Other filesharing networks will have the file on their network.

But let's be honest I'm just nitpicking. Those facts mean nothing as far as the actual point is concerned. As far as that goes, it's like I said at the beginning - your point is valid.

When I said:

The networks on both sides of the Atlantic don't want to establish a precedent whereby they will find it difficult to inflict their garbage on overseas viewers, and make a quick buck, before anyone finds out how bad whatever it is is. They don't want us to know about stuff like Hex Season 2 until we get it.

that was more snark than anything else.

If I was going to make a point I actually believe, it would be this one. There is no independently derived evidence I know of (and I do pay attention to this kind of stuff) suggesting viewership of television episodes is affected detrimentally by downloaders seeing the eps before they air. There is evidence to support the idea downloading may actually have a positive promotional effect for media. That one I'm prepared to support. I'm not sure I have to, but I can if you'd like me to.

[Bored of the Dead]

Dr Who was an example, in most cases a TV show is not broadcast in 'foreign' lands at almost the same time to start with.
Dr Who may be different as it may be financed with foreign broadcasters money in part.
Ricky Gervais 'Extras' was/is done this way, with HBO and BBC.

The '100' figure was not in relation to how many people download, it was the highest i'd be willing to estimate in terms of how many people you talk to in North America regarding this particular show and topic exclusively.
It would be pretty naive of anyone to put the number so low in Gen Pop terms.
Even if every single person in the states downloaded it, your own personal figure of people you know is not a solid enough stat to make a decent hypothesis and or Conclusion based on the figures of a show scoring so high.
Thats not to say your Conclusion is indeed wrong, just not soild enough on the foundation of the number of people you likely talk to.

See, while I agree that the downloading could have a positive effect on viewing figures, there isn't much evidence you can bring forth to support it. Against it however, is the fact that before shows were downloadable, the effect of small viewerships getting larger and larger is easily seen.
This isn't against in the sense to prove that downloads dramatically increase/decrease viewing figures, more in the sense that word of mouth has always been the biggest seller of something like a TV show. If enough people watch it and pass the information on, then more will follow.
This is one of the reasons that i think any show cancelled before 15 episodes, epscially ones showing a gradual rise in viewers, is not doing said show or indeed TV justice.

I'd personally never back someone to watch a show before its broadcast through legit means. After that however, i'm not too bothered. Its been aired in its correct place.

The BBC has recently started airing some shows online a week before their TV air date(Dr Who isn't one of those:( ). I do think before long episodes of most shows will be done like this as a means to integrate Computers into more aspects of our lives.
I'm actually against that on a different set of principles regarding the NWO but thats another topic for another site(or PM).

[N4H]

On your last point, have you checked out the Internet TV thread in the general forum here? That kind of stuff is being discussed. I'd be interested in hearing what you think there.

On anecdotal evidence, you're right, that doesn't prove anything. It's meant more as an appeal to what people know about themselves, and what conclusions they might draw from that.

It is also true however, there is no real evidence suggesting downloading harms viewership.

So is there hard evidence suggesting it increases it? Not really but kind of. Off the top of my head there's stuff like successful viral marketing campaigns over filesharing networks, increased rate of growth of independent music since filesharing began, media corporations adopting techniques involving early viewing to promote upcoming releases. There's more. That's just off the top of my head. I can't really search right now, as I'm downloading something, and my system is slow.

On word of mouth, yes, I totally agree. I've heard it referred to as the best marketing tool there is. The question becomes does early viewing help that, or hinder it?

[Vilandra]

I've only ever downloaded 3 shows: Hex, Football Icon and the first episode of Spaced.

Hex is a show that looked like we'd never get it here - season one was over and there were no plans for it yet. It is awesome. People on BB will remember me posting about it there then, which I would say probably peaked at least some people's interest in places outside the UK to watch it when they did get it. I not only have watched each episode as it aired here, but am at this moment watching a Hex marathon lol. I agree with what N4H said - if the show is good, it can help.

Football Icon I knew we'd never ever get as there is no reason to show it here, and it was Chelsea so I had to have it lol.

Spaced I watched the first episode on BOTD's I think advice, loved it, then they decided they were going to show it here so now I've been watching the regularly aired eps. Dream Team is my favorite show in the world, and we are four seasons behind in the US, but I still don't download it because I have the ability to watch it regularly (even though it's excruciatingly painful waiting between seasons).

Is downloading illegal? Probably. But I feel like, if they are not going to release shows on DVD (and in a region that my DVD player will support), and not air the episodes where I live, then the only way I'm going to get to see the show is via download.

And I'll say I'll only make the effort if the show is THAT GOOD that I need to see it. Otherwise, I'm not going to bother to go to the trouble of downloading it. And I don't download shows before they are aired in their home country.

Especially today word of mouth is the bigger make or break factor in media success. The word of mouth on Hex for example was huge. Even if you only talk to five people about it, then they each talk to five people, then those people talk to five people etc.

[Black Eye Guy]

I would totally agree that it helps, I downloaded an episode of The O.C., to see if I would like it, and when I discovered I did I went out and bought the first season.

I have been watching Doctor who the same way in order to catch up, and I plan to watch it on TV when I have. I also plan on buying the first season soon (the only thing stopping me is a lack of money.)

Same goes for The 4400, I will also be buying it on DVD, when it is released, and will probably watch it on TV, maybe not every week, but if I saw it on I would.

I also concider it extramly annoying that networks would even be slightly annoyed if someone dowloaded an episode of something they canceled and refused to air in TV!!

[Bored of the Dead]

Spaced I watched the first episode on BOTD's I think advice, loved it, then they decided they were going to show it here so now I've been watching the regularly aired eps.

Yes, it was me. Excellent isn't it:)
I was in Leeds the other day and got both series 1 and 2 for £9($18).
I love the constant reference of pop culture. The characters are like, well me and my friends.

Anyway, back on topic.

I do believe that certain shows should be downloadable for reasons such as not being shown again or having a DVD release.
I would also say that it is in the best interest of any new show to have the first episode available online free to help create a buzz.
My issue is the illegal downloads of entire series before showing in your own country.

See after its air date, again i have no issue. Its the same as taping a show for later viewing.

[Vilandra]

See after its air date, again i have no issue. Its the same as taping a show for later viewing.

Agreed :)

[prydain]

Agreed :)


I also agree with that, I do that and then I delete them as soon as the DVD is available and I buy that. I think only once downloading a show PREVENTED me from watching it on TV, I don't remember what show it was but man it was retarded.

[Mr Pointy]

I was in Leeds the other day and got both series 1 and 2 for £9($18).

Ooh! Which shop was that BotD? At that price I would definitely get Spaced...it was recommended to me ages ago and I still haven't got round to watching.

As for downloading, I know that it is illegal but I have done it - usually when I've missed an ep of something and it won't get repeated for a long time or when the VCR didn't get set properly, or some sporting event over-ran...

I look at it like going slightly over the speed limit whilst driving - it's wrong but no-one gets hurt...

[Bored of the Dead]

Ooh! Which shop was that BotD? At that price I would definitely get Spaced...it was recommended to me ages ago and I still haven't got round to watching.

As for downloading, I know that it is illegal but I have done it - usually when I've missed an ep of something and it won't get repeated for a long time or when the VCR didn't get set properly, or some sporting event over-ran...

I look at it like going slightly over the speed limit whilst driving - it's wrong but no-one gets hurt...


Borders/HMV/Virgin are doing a Channel 4 Comedy thing.
Borders £6.99
HMV and Virgin £5.99

I gpt mine from MVC in a sale.
Either way you cut that cheese its cheap and TOTALLY worth it:)

On other topic.
As far as downloading cause missed or not repeated, i have to say i've done that one.

[Mr Pointy]

Borders/HMV/Virgin are doing a Channel 4 Comedy thing.
Borders £6.99
HMV and Virgin £5.99


Thanks for that. I would rep you but it seems I need to spread the Pointy love around a little more :)

Looks like a trip to HMV or Virgin for me this weekend then, unless I can persuade Mrs P that she should spend her lunch break looking for DVDs for me :)

[N4H]

There's this one idiot who offers up Doctor Who torrents, who sends accompanying files with the vid, and one of them is a text file begging money. Also, the two times I've downloaded from him I've received a firewall warning from my side telling me something is trying to access the internet. If the networks are looking for someone to sue, and want to get sympathy, they should concentrate on twits like that.

[eponinethen]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I have a confession to make :D

I don't own a TV. I never watch TV. I, occationally, buy DVDs. When they're out on PAL and I really want the show. But I never buy a show on DVD, unless I have already downloaded basically all the episodes and made sure I really want the DVDs.
I like downloading.. That's how I watch all the shows I watch (and yes, I watch a lot of TV shows).

[Vilandra]

Wow. I'm actually speechless.

[prydain]

Why are you speechless? Because she doesn't own a TV? lol

[Vilandra]

Yes lol ;)

[eponinethen]

Heheh, well, I'm poor..?
(This is how what my family is like, if you'd ask Joamna she'd say the same, lol.. I mean, if you can get it free..? Ok nvm this sounds bad now, lol..)

N4H agrees: Go Epo, from the land of Piratbyrån
Woohoo :p

[N4H]

Speaking of Pirate Bay Epo, this is a great opportunity to get the inside poop on all that from an actual Swede.

What's the general mood in Sweden concerning how the American government pressured the Swedish government to go after Pirate Bay? Is there a mood? Do your friends, or family talk about it? If so, what do they say? How much buzz is there concerning PiratByran? (That's the Swedish political party with a platform based on internet piracy, correct?)

Have you ever read those emails from Pirate Bay to Web Sherriff? Aren't those hilarious?

[eponinethen]

N4H
Obviously I haven't been in Sweden until a month ago, so even though I've been here to hear about I don't know everything that has been going on. But anyways:
Well it's completely illegal for the government or ministers to pressure the police or tell them what to do, so obviously people think it's just shitty and stuff.. And people like the Pirate Bay, and I've never met anyone who doesn'y download stuff? I mean it's hasn't even been that illegal here (although it kidna tis now). The Piratbyrån political party is sort of a joke though, to people, but I think it's a bit funny, people taking it that far, 'cause it's been out of hand..

Lol I actually haven't, but I've heard people talking about those emails, and it's funny since, that stuff wasn't really illegal then and well.. etc.


Personally, I just wish downloading wouldn't be illegal. I could pay a monthly fee or whatever (like I do for broadband), but I loke downloading, and I would have never spent over 300sek of BtVS and even more on Angel and Firefly (and Twin Peaks and The L Word etc. etc.) if I hadn't firts downloaded it and discovered its genious! I would have never bought DVDs if it wasn't for my best friend, aka Bittorrent!


(So if I make not too much sense, it's cause I'm a bit tipsy.. if that's teh case, ask me again tomorrow? :p )

[Shawn Farrell]

I've never actually downloaded any shows before but i'm thinking of maybe downloading the first episode from Season three of Battestar Galactica, because i don't have sky one and because it isn't showed on any other channels in the UK apart from Sky One, i have to wait untill the season is released on DVD before i can watch it. But i guess if you only do it once in a blue moon then i don't think it will make much difference, but if your doing it on a regular basis and don't watch the series when it's televised then that's when it probably becomes a problem, if enough people started downloading. Am i wrong there.

[N4H]

You mean morally, or legally? Legally, if they wanted to they could sue you. Sometimes the lawsuit is successful. Sometimes it isn't. It's always a big expense, and bother though. I base that on music filesharing lawsuits. I can't think of any lawsuit for the non-profit filesharing of a television episode which has gone to trial yet, so I can't advise you.

Morally, I don't know. Either you think it's wrong, or you don't. Personally it wouldn't bother me. Other people feel like they've done evil if they've share a copyrighted file, so who knows.

[Joamna]

(This is how what my family is like, if you'd ask Joamna she'd say the same, lol..
Yup, I would.. I do exactly the same, download stuff and then when I know it's good I might buy the DVDs (would buy more if I wasn't so poor). 'Cause I want to be able do discuss my favourite shows online, when everyone else is watching it too.. Not 2 (or more) years later when swedish television finally decides to air the shows.

And about the Piratbay political party (Piratpartiet), our election day is on sunday, and I'm looking forward to seeing how much votes they get.. I didn't vote for them though, and I don't know anyone who will either but it has been kinda a big issue lately, gonna be interesting either way.. And they do have other opinions than just the filesharing too, like peoples right to their integrity without being spied on by "big brother"...

[Rose Tyler]

For once I don't have to download a show to watch it, being in the UK means I get it first and Dr Who Confidential.

However I will admit I do download quite a bit. If a show makes it over here then chances are it will go to Sky/Cable. Cable isn't in my area and I refuse to give Sky the money because its a joke. I do however buy the DVDs and spread the word about the show and when it does air on any freeview type channels I will watch them first time around and the repeats.

So to sum that up yes I download but they also get my viewing figure here in the UK and my money when I buy the boxsets.

[eponinethen]

And about the Piratbay political party (Piratpartiet), our election day is on sunday, and I'm looking forward to seeing how much votes they get.. I didn't vote for them though, and I don't know anyone who will either but it has been kinda a big issue lately, gonna be interesting either way.. And they do have other opinions than just the filesharing too, like peoples right to their integrity without being spied on by "big brother"...

Yeah I didn't either (obviously, since Joamna does know me), but I wish them votes, I really do :)

[N4H]

Did you know it's international "talk like a pirate day" today, me hearties. ;)

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html

[prydain]

I heard on the radio they mentioned that on Wife Swap last night...or something. There was a woman on there whose family acted like pirates. lol