The Iran/British Sailors Debacle

[goldenboy]

So who's following this one? Makes me think of the hostage crisis of '79. I find it pretty repulsive the way they're putting the sailors on display, having that female sailor send letters, the televised "apologies", etc. What do you suppose their goal is? Deflecting attention from the nuclear issue? Bargaining chips in the talks?

What would you have the British govt do? What would you do?

[N4H]

People bitch about the way Israel handles these kinds of situations, but you won't see Hezbollah kidnapping Israeli soldiers for awhile.

You know what I can't understand, is when the British ship first saw the Iranians coming in their zodiacs, why didn't they just blow them out of the water?

Is it possible they really were in Iranian waters, and they knew it?

[goldenboy]

Maybe. I thought the latest was that the British govt claimed to have proof that they were in Iraqi waters at the time. Satellite imaging, etc...but it's sort of all disputed territory around those waters? Dunno.

I just remember how different the British strategy was in the south of Iraq during this latest war. How the British military style was to stress talk, diplomacy, calming people down. More so than the American style anyway.

Seems like if a Western nation tried to pull the media stunt Iran is pulling now, you'd never hear the end of it. Worldwide outrage.

[Miffed67]

Is it possible they really were in Iranian waters, and they knew it?

Or maybe it's a case where Iran claims their territory extends to 200 miles at sea, but international law only recognizes 10 miles. (And I don't know what the numbers are, I'm just throwing some arbitrary ones out there.)

[N4H]

But that brings me back to the question, why didn't the British blow them out of the water when they saw them coming in their zodiacs? It's such an obvious question it must be answered somewhere, but I don't even see anyone asking it?

[goldenboy]

Here's what the Times says...
The British sailors and marines being held by Iran were ambushed at their most vulnerable moment, while climbing down the ladder of a merchant ship and trying to get into their bobbing inflatables.

Out of sight of their warship and without any helicopter cover, their only link to their commanders was a communications device beaming their position by satellite.

That went dead as they were captured. One theory is that it was thrown overboard to prevent the Iranians getting hold of the equipment and the information it contained.

The Ministry of Defence released the coordinates of the searched vessel yesterday to prove that the Iranian Revolutionary Guards made an unprovoked and improper attack in Iraqi waters.

The Iranians also blundered in diplomatic talks by giving the British their own compass reference for the place where they said the 14 men and one woman had been seized. When Britain plotted these on a map and pointed out that the spot was in Iraq’s maritime area, the Iranians came up with a new set of coordinates, putting the seizure in their own waters.

The speed and cunning shown by the Revolutionary Guards has raised suspicions that their action was premeditated. A senior military officer described it as “deliberate”.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1582544.ece



From March 18th...
IRAN is threatening to retaliate in Europe for what it claims is a daring undercover operation by western intelligence services to kidnap senior officers in its Revolutionary Guard.

According to Iranian sources, several officers have been abducted in the past three months and the United States has drawn up a list of other targets to be seized with the aim of destabilising Tehran’s military command.

In an article in Subhi Sadek, the Revolutionary Guard’s weekly paper, Reza Faker, a writer believed to have close links to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, warned that Iran would strike back.

“We’ve got the ability to capture a nice bunch of blue-eyed blond-haired officers and feed them to our fighting cocks,” he said. “Iran has enough people who can reach the heart of Europe and kidnap Americans and Israelis.”

The first sign of a possible campaign against high-ranking Iranian officers emerged earlier this month with the discovery that Ali Reza Asgari, former commander of the Revolutionary Guard’s elite Quds Force in Lebanon and deputy defence minister, had vanished, apparently during a trip to Istanbul.

Asgari’s disappearance shocked the Iranian regime as he is believed to possess some of its most closely guarded secrets. The Quds Force is responsible for operations outside Iran.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1530527.ece

[teentitan]

But that brings me back to the question, why didn't the British blow them out of the water when they saw them coming in their zodiacs? It's such an obvious question it must be answered somewhere, but I don't even see anyone asking it?

It's called ROE, Rules of Engagement. The british sailors were patroling Iraqi waters for Iraqi inusrgents (for lack of a better description). The Iranian boat was flying the Iranian flag therefore the Brits were not allowed to fire upon them because they are not the insurgents. The only way the Brits could have legally fired at the Iranians is if the Iranians fired upon them first then that would have put the Brits in a 'defensive' position which would justify their actions. But to just open fire on the Iranians is looked at as an act of war by Britain. So basically before the Brits could respond to being taken by the Iranians they were surrounded and would have been all killed so surrender was their only option.
As a 'western' military it is very hard to not do the natural response to a situation. We are looked at as a 'civilized' society therefore our soldiers must remain calm and follow ROE. If we do not then we are nothing more then mercenaries, guns for hire.
As for this whole situation the Iranians are taking a page from the Viet Nam files. Parade the prisoners infront of the camera's to show the rest of the world that they are civilized as well and are treating these 'invaders' with comfort.
This problem escalated when the UN imposed their nuclear sanctions on Iran. Now their leader is whipping his citizens into a frenzy about how the world is telling us how to live etc. Hell the guy complained about the comic book movie 300!
This either ends in an invasion and war with Iran or multiple mushroom clouds take your pick. While your picking you can pick who creates the first cloud...If this is negotiated into a release deal the UN will literally be looked at as a group weaker then the cub scouts!

[goldenboy]

As for this whole situation the Iranians are taking a page from the Viet Nam files. Parade the prisoners infront of the camera's to show the rest of the world that they are civilized as well and are treating these 'invaders' with comfort.

To me, this just shows the giant gulf between the Western and a non-Western mindset. How would most people in the West not view this spectacle with revulsion? How would Iran not "get" that? (Although, yeah, a significant segment of Western folks would probably see it as British warmongers getting their just desserts or whatever) Seems like Iran is playing mostly to their domestic audience, sympathizers...?

[teentitan]

To me, this just shows the giant gulf between the Western and a non-Western mindset. How would most people in the West not view this spectacle with revulsion? How would Iran not "get" that? (Although, yeah, a significant segment of Western folks would probably see it as British warmongers getting their just desserts or whatever) Seems like Iran is playing mostly to their domestic audience, sympathizers...?

It's an internet global village now so he's just not dialing up his own citizens he is also dialing up 'everyone' else around the world. The Iranian leader also wants the citizens of other countries to pressure their government into lifting the UN sanctions and screaming don't you dare invade Iran.
Like I said this is going to be real interesting or really scary.

[N4H]

I still think the Brits should have learned lessons from the Israeli-Lebanon border clash. They should have seen this one coming. They should have provided cover for their guys, and once the Iranians crossed the border, they should have been all over them. If they wanted to fight it's rules of engagement, schmools of enbagement.

Did you ever see that movie The Wind and the Lion, where Sean Connery is this Arabian shiek who kidnaps an American woman, and her two kids. In that one the Americans are under Teddy Roosevelt, and the policy is such they wind up being able to send in the troops in spite of the fact the Germans, and other countries are looking to use the incident to their political advantage. We need another Teddy R.

[goldenboy]

Did you ever see that movie The Wind and the Lion, where Sean Connery is this Arabian shiek who kidnaps an American woman, and her two kids. In that one the Americans are under Teddy Roosevelt, and the policy is such they wind up being able to send in the troops in spite of the fact the Germans, and other countries are looking to use the incident to their political advantage. We need another Teddy R.

That makes me think of the Barbary pirates, and Jefferson. Getting a little OT, but I don't know of any filmed version of the US-Barbary conflicts. There's gotta be...hmm.

In 1783 the USA made peace with and was recognized by Britain, and in 1784 the first American ship was captured by pirates from Morocco. The stars and stripes was a new flag to them. After six months of negotiation, a treaty was signed, $60,000 cash was paid, and trade began. Morocco was the first independent nation to recognize the USA back in 1778.[2]

But Algeria was different. In 1784 two ships (the Maria of Boston and the Dauphine of Philadelphia) were captured, everything sold and their crews enslaved to build port fortifications. Christian slaves were preferred and forced to do degrading work and treated harshly so letters would be written home to prompt the payment of a bigger ransom.

In 1786, Thomas Jefferson, then the ambassador to France, and John Adams, then the ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the ambassador to Britain from Tripoli. The Americans asked Adja why his government was hostile to American ships, even though there had been no provocation. The ambassador's response was reported to the Continental Congress:

That it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.[3]

American ships sailing in the Mediterranean chose to travel close to larger convoys of other European powers who had bribed the pirates. In the early 1800s, President Thomas Jefferson proposed a league of smaller nations to patrol the area, but the USA could not contribute. For the prisoners, Algeria wanted 60,000 dollars, America offered $4,000. Jefferson said a million dollars would buy them off, but Congress would only appropriate $80,000. For eleven years Americans who lived in Algeria lived as slaves to Algerian Moors.

For a while, Portugal was patrolling the Straits of Gibraltar and preventing Barbary Pirates from entering the Atlantic. But they made a cash deal with the pirates, and they were again sailing into the Atlantic and engaging in piracy. By late 1793, a dozen American ships had been captured, goods stripped and everyone enslaved.

Portugal had offered some armed patrols, but American merchants needed an armed American presence to sail near Europe. After some serious debate, the United States Navy was born in March 1794. Six frigates were authorized, and so began the construction of the United States, the Constellation, the Constitution and three other frigates.

This new military presence helped to stiffen American resolve to resist the continuation of tribute payments, leading to the two Barbary Wars along the North African coast, the First Barbary War from 1801 to 1805 and the Second Barbary War in 1815. It was not until 1815 that naval victories ended tribute payments by the U.S., although some European nations continued annual payments until the 1830s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

[N4H]

So that's who the Barbary pirates were...

All I know is Iran should be glad someone like me isn't in charge of the free world right now. Their quote unquote commandos would be glowing along the strait of Hormuz right now wondering where Tehran went.

[Mr Pointy]

Interesting that the "confession" letters and broadcasts from the sailors/marines sound very similar to the language used by Iranian spokesmen and not at all like how I imagine junior British naval or marine ranks talking or writing. In one clip that I saw the lad "confessing" was clearly being told what to say by someone off-camera...one of those spokesmen I have no doubt.

[Miffed67]

I still think the Brits should have learned lessons from the Israeli-Lebanon border clash. They should have seen this one coming. They should have provided cover for their guys, and once the Iranians crossed the border, they should have been all over them. If they wanted to fight it's rules of engagement, schmools of enbagement.

It does seem a little shortsighted to not have provided maximum security to any military actions in the area, given the climate of the region. They knew they were not in international waters, what was the reasoning behind letting sailors go out of view of the ship, with no communications devices (other than the beacon)? Not even if they just saw the operation as the simple boarding of a merchant ship, imo!

[goldenboy]

Interesting that the "confession" letters and broadcasts from the sailors/marines sound very similar to the language used by Iranian spokesmen and not at all like how I imagine junior British naval or marine ranks talking or writing. In one clip that I saw the lad "confessing" was clearly being told what to say by someone off-camera...one of those spokesmen I have no doubt.

Yeah, I was reading that there were odd spellings, grammatical errors. I don't think many people outside the Muslim world are buying any of it. You gotta wonder what all the young Iranians are thinking about all this nonsense. So many are just itching to get Ahmadinejad outta there.

[edit]

Well, yeah, not all of them I guess...


Mob Attacks UK Embassy
Updated: 15:55, Sunday April 01, 2007

Rocks and firecrackers have been thrown at the British embassy in Tehran as the row over 15 captured sailors and marines escalates. Witnesses said there had been several small blasts and smoke could be seen rising in the compound. Demonstrators called for the expulsion of the UK ambassador and the closure of the embassy, calling it a "den of spies". Around 200 people massed outside, chanting "death to Britain" and "death to America".
Sky Foreign Affairs Editor Tim Marshall said the demonstration would have been sanctioned by Iranian officials. He added: "This is a warning. In the last protest there were around 10 people, around 200 this time and next time it could be thousands." The demonstrators - mainly students - did not breach the compound, which was protected by police, and there were no reports of injuries.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1258555,00.html




This is for real? Seems surreal to me...

Ministers are preparing a compromise deal to allow Iran to save face and release its 15 British military captives by promising that the Royal Navy will never knowingly enter Iranian waters without permission...

..."We are not apologising, nor are we saying that we entered their waters in the first place. But it may offer a route out of the crisis."

Details of the strategy emerged as a former Falklands War commander expressed fury at how the sailors surrendered to Iranian gunboats without a fight.

Maj Gen Julian Thompson called for a review of the Navy's rules of engagement, dictated by the United Nations, that they cannot open fire unless they are shot at first. "In my view this thing is a complete cock-up," he said.

"I want to know why the Marines didn't open fire or put up some sort of fight. My fear is that they didn't have the right rules of engagement, which would allow them to do this."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=OM5SSHFCW2BBVQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQ WIV0?xml=/news/2007/04/01/wiran01.xml

Seems to me that even if they do get the sailors back, this is already a huge PR victory for 'Jad. And the UN is meaningless, it's nothing in this context - let alone the nuclear stuff.

[teentitan]

It will only be a PR victory in Iran/middle east. The rest of the world will see it for what it is an out for both sides without a clash of arms.
As for the UN it has been meaningless since the Food for Oil program with Iraq back in the 90's. Especially when it came to light that Koffi Annan's son brokered the deal with France and Germany and got over $2 million in broker fees.

[goldenboy]

Exactly. A PR victory in Iran/Middle East. A humiliation/punishment for Britain, in their eyes - for whatever that's worth. I just wonder if groveling, making concessions doesn't have potentially dangerous consequences, just like other options might. Increase 'Jad's delusions of grandeur. 'Course, if you take him at his word, he's already waaay over the bend, no going back...

[Gollanth]

Well, I see that "Armadillojad" (which is how I keep hearing his name in my head) has graciously decided to release the sailors "on condition that Teflon Tony doesn't prosecute them". I tell you, I laughed my arse off at that comment. What is he on? Whatever it is, it sounds like good stuff.

Let's hope he actually sticks to his word now and they all come home tomorrow.

[goldenboy]

I hear a lot of "Accchhhminejad"s, as people spit on themselves. And they never get the correct amount of syllables, lol.

I'd just be curious to hear what British diplomats were saying to Jad's people behind the scenes. Did the EU help out at all with economic threats? Or was it just, "Sorry about the misunderstanding, blah, blah..."


And he gives this guy a medal!

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/04/05/1175366335800.html?from=top5

That's so cute, lol.

[goldenboy]

Uh huh. I'm almost starting to think this is all in retaliation for 300.

Iran Makes Movie, Book about UK Sailors

Iran will shoot a movie and publish a book about the detention of the fifteen Royal Navy crewmembers in a bid to disclose the whole truth, DPA reported, citing a statement of Iran armed forces.

The statement, circulated to foreign journalists in Tehran, says that the documentary and the book will trace the whole process, starting from the detention of the British sailors, their interrogations and what was described as "their confessions that they strayed into Iranian waters."

The fifteen British Royal Navy sailors and marines were seized last month while conducting a routine inspection of a merchant vessel at the northern end of the Persian Gulf. Iran said they had strayed into Iranian territorial waters, a claim which the UK vehemently denied.

They were freed on April 4 by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in what he described as goodwill gesture to the UK.
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=79136

[N4H]

They should hire Christoper Guest, or Mike Clattenburg (Trailer Park Boys) to make it. :)

[Gollanth]

Oh Christ!! This is going to run and run isn't it? I'd rather hoped it would die a death now they've come home, but I see there's a big hoo-ha now about some of them getting paid for their stories.

Personally, I have no strong feelings about it either way, but I can see why some people who've lost loved ones through real torture and aren't allowed to talk about it would get a bit upset.

I do sympathise with them and their families, as it must have been a terribly stressful time for them all but, paid or unpaid, it's hardly going to make gripping, edge-of-the-seat reading is it? I mean....it's not like they were tied to chairs the entire time, starved and had their fingernails extracted is it? At the end of the day, they were 15 people who were hooked off a boat and kept apart for a few days. They were coerced into writing a few badly scripted letters and some poorly acted confessions. Anybody with a pair of eyes and a brain in their head could see that. Is it really worth reading about? (Whoever will really know whether they were in the wrong place or not, with the various versions of SatNav data being bandied about? And I don't necessarily believe Teflon Tony's cronies any more than I believe Armadillojad's either.)

Let's just ignore it all now, or it just makes it all worse. The next thing you know, one of them will turn up in the next series of Big Brother!

[goldenboy]

I've been trying to avert my eyes, but I find it all so fascinating! All the different reactions I'm reading from the British public. Just the weirdness of the matching Miami Vice outfits, the parting gift goody bags from Jad, the MoD exempting the sailors/marines from the story-selling policy, then reversing itself...

If these were US marines, there'd probably be multiple pathetic TV movies in the works already. Those weeds spring up so fast. The Iranian documentary should be interesting. They could get Michael Moore to help out. Or, yeah, Christopher Guest. Or Sacha Cohen maybe...

[Gollanth]

Sacha Baron Cohen?.....

You slay me sometimes, you really do!

[goldenboy]

Sacha Baron Cohen?.....

You slay me sometimes, you really do!

I think if they ever do a biopic of Ahmadinejad, SBC should play the lead. And it should have several musical numbers.

[N4H]

Yeah, like the classic "I'm so ronery" number by Kim Jong-il in Team America:World Police. They should do a duet. :) In fact...as long as we're scripting, I'm seeing a possible romance. Oh, and for tension with a possible triangle I'm thinking maybe a goat.

[goldenboy]

A goat, yeah, now you're talkin, lol. And Jad's singing some little ditty about a map without Israel. Maybe..."What a Wonderful World"? That title's taken I guess. But just redo it, change the lyrics, heh.

[N4H]

Oh, and Al Gore does the voice-over. He needs book-end Oscars. They could call it "An Even More Inconvient Truth". I'm seeing dancing polar bears on melting icebergs.