Abortion?

[Angels baby101]

ok i know pretty heavy subject but are you for it? Why? Or are you agianst it and why?

Me i'm agianst it in all cases except rape, I could kinda understand if you were raped i mean i couldn't do it but. See i think every child should be givin the chance at a life if your woman enough to spread your legs your woman enough to have a baby. I think children are wonderful, I mean even if you dont want the baby at least give it up for adoption instead of killing it. Its not right to that child even if its still just an embreo. What if your child is the child thats supposed to cure a disease or something do you really wanna chance that? I dunno i'm just really agianst it i mean to each their own but...

[prydain]

I agree.

I know it's a touchy subject, though.

In some areas I'm conservative, some liberal, and some independent, but I'm more conservative in this idea. I personally believe that life begins at conception, and therefore it would be murder to kill the child. I agree that it would be best to have the baby and, at the very least, give it up for adoption. You will be saving a life and giving a family who WANTS a child want they need to make them happy.

However, in cases of rape and if the mother and/or baby face death, then I do not think it is wrong to abort the child. Rape would be tramautic and I don't think many women could deal with it.

[Gollanth]

Personally, I'm in favour of the woman having a choice as to what she wants to do with her own body. I suspect that most women realise the problems they're going to encounter after having had the termination and, to my mind, if they still wanna go ahead knowing that, then it's up to them.

I also don't agree with the "have it and give it up for adoption" theory. There are too many kids in care home already, waiting for adoption, to be thinking about adding more to their number.

Besides, legislating against abortion is not going to stop it anyway.......

[prydain]

Besides, legislating against abortion is not going to stop it anyway.......

This is true. I had a friend who killed her baby when it was only a few weeks old to keep her mom from finding out. I was pretty upset but understood. The father was a real prick and it was for the best, probably.

And I guess medically-safe procedures are better than self-induced abortions, but I still think there are better ways.

[Allycat]

Personally, I'm in favour of the woman having a choice as to what she wants to do with her own body.

I totally agree... but the feotus is not her body... it's her child's.

Needless to say, I'm against abortion. Rape is difficult. I don't know what to make of that, but I'm also inclined to say no to that.

[Vilandra]

All I can say is it's real easy to be against abortion when you aren't the one who's going to have to take care of the baby and be stigmatized because you had a baby when you weren't married.

[eponinethen]

All I can say is it's real easy to be against abortion when you aren't the one who's going to have to take care of the baby and be stigmatized because you had a baby when you weren't married.
Just a stupid question... Is this still an issue in some places? Having a chil when not married?

But of course I agree.. and it's impossible to know what it's like before you've been tehre yourself.. But yeah, I definitely think it's the woman's choice...

[prydain]

I think I agree with Allycat on this one.

[Angels baby101]

I dunno i mean i've been close to being pregnant, and even though i was afriad i knew that it was my own fault. I was willing to partake in the actions i deserve concequences.

[eponinethen]

I dunno i mean i've been close to being pregnant, and even though i was afriad i knew that it was my own fault. I was willing to partake in the actions i deserve concequences.
Ok you might see that as a "punishment" (ok not really but you get what I mean), but do you think that's fair on the child....?

And well, I have a lot of friends who have had abortions (and I know my mom had one before I was born).. and I don't blame them at all.. both their and the child's life would be sort of ruined if they hadn't...
I mean it's great if you feel like you'd be able to do it.. give up your plans to have the baby and all.. but I really do understand those who wouldn't..

[Angels baby101]

Well not really i mean if the woman doesn't wanna take care of the baby she can always give it to someone who wants it. I mean she can still have the baby, she doesn't have to choose abortion. i mean she can give the baby a fighting chance at least

[eponinethen]

Well, I'm not in any way saying I'm against adoption – but that isn't exactly the ultimate solution either. It's not always that easy at all. And I do understand women who wouldn't want to give their child to someone else, even though they're not ready to take care of it themself...
I'm just saying, adoption is not a perfect solution. Neither is keeping the baby, and neither is abortion. Which is why I think it has got to be the woman's choice to make.

[Allycat]

I got two problems with that....

First... it's the child's life... so why is it mother's choice?!

Second... what happened to the father... I know he isn't the one who has to carry the child is his tummy for 9 months... but shouldn't he regardless have an equal say in this... the genes are 50/50 too!

[Tal Hawkins]

abortion should be the mother's choice - and it should be legal

you shoudltn be able to force a woman to have a child IMO- especially in some of the worst cases such as rape =/

and it's the mother's chocie allycat because she'/s the one who has to carry the child

by all means she's free to gvie it up for adoption if she wishes should she have it - or give it to the father should he want to raise it

and yes the father should have a say - but the final decision IMO should be the mothers

[Tal Hawkins]

lol u disagree allycat? so the final say shouldnt be the mothers eh? =p

so she should, against her will, bear a child ? u would force her to carry it for 9 months then go through hours and hours of delivery for a child she doesnt want and may not even be able to care for?

and pray tell who is the third party? mother, father.. ?

[Vilandra]

Oh and don't forget the risking your life part... :D

[Allycat]

I think you are exaggerating when you say they're risking there lifes... sure... SOME pregnancies may have dangerous complications, but that's a very small minority.

And Tal Hawkins... you think a father should let his child die, without being able to do anything about it? you think an unborn child doesn't have the right to live once he has been created?

I do understand what you are saying... but I think it's rather one-sided. I'm all in favour of equality between the sexes, but in this case the scales are tipping to the female side.

[Velvet Sky]

Okay I'm just going to say I think it's a woman's right to choose... I'm refraining from saying anything else, because if I do, I'm pretty sure I'll piss some people off...

[VisionGuy]

I'm against abortion. That's all I'm going to say.

[Akasha]

Personally, I'm in favour of the woman having a choice as to what she wants to do with her own body.

i absolutley hate when people say this...its not her body...its a completely different human. it has its own DNA and it grows on its own...sure, it needs its mother to survive, but so does a 2 yr old toddler

I also don't agree with the "have it and give it up for adoption" theory. There are too many kids in care home already, waiting for adoption, to be thinking about adding more to their number.

oh yes, so we should just kill them...thats so much better

Besides, legislating against abortion is not going to stop it anyway.......

you're right. and while we are at it, why dont we legalize murder and robbery too? cuz, you know, legislating against it is not going to stop it anyway




oh, and sorry if if i looks like im just picking on Gollanth..im not..just havent read through the whole thread before i said something...

[Allycat]

Finally someone agrees with me :D I completely agree with you. You raise very valid points!

[Gollanth]

i absolutley hate when people say this...its not her body...its a completely different human. it has its own DNA and it grows on its own...sure, it needs its mother to survive, but so does a 2 yr old toddler
I can't argue with the DNA point, or that the foetus needs its mother to survive. However, surely the fact that it is growing inside the mother's body gives her the right to decide whether to keep it there or not? Also, I hardly think it's logical to compare a bunch of cells without any nerve-endings or definable personality, (and, realistically, that's what is actually terminated in the early stages) with a 2-year-old child. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this statement, but it seems to me that you're advocating that no woman should have any rights whatever as to what happens to her insides. Perhaps you also feel that they shouldn't be able to vote or work either? :)


oh yes, so we should just kill them...thats so much better
No, it isn't any better, I agree, but I do think you have to look realistically at the situation. Perhaps the adoption situation is different on your side of the pond, but here in the UK it's utterly dire. There are countless thousands of children who spend much of their early lives being shunted from home to home, without ever feeling any sense of belonging or being loved. That's to say nothing about the amount of sexual abuse that goes on in those places. Personally, I can't see how adding to that number is a better solution?


you're right. and while we are at it, why dont we legalize murder and robbery too? cuz, you know, legislating against it is not going to stop it anyway
Oh, get a grip, will you! :fishslap:

I also hope you don't think I'm picking on you at all, but since you singled out some of my comments in your post, I think it's only fair and democratic that I'm allowed to reply.

[Tal Hawkins]

yeah you cant really stop abortion - if it isnt done with a doctor some chic is gonna find a way to do it on her own - and those ways are even more unsafe and rather disgusting to think about

and just FYI if i got a chic pregnant right now- at 17 - i would ask her to have it, i would tell her i would take care of it if she would just have it

BUT the decision IMO should be hers since- as Vil said- there are risks of complications to the baby and the mother - plus she kinda does have to carry it for like err 9 months XD lol thats a hell of a long time to make someone do something they dont want to

and plus, yeah that fetus is the POSSIBILITY of a human life, with it's own DNA and everything - but it isnt really, technically alive

i dont know, i wouldnt opt for abortion if i got a girl pregnant but lets say this :

girl gets raped

by her FATHER

has a kid

- should she be forced to carry it ? to raise it? what complications would that raise in the girls life? in the child's?- who might even be deformed

thats a sick a** example i know but you have to consider things like that- and i think we all know you cant make exceptions for people who can do something like this and cant

[prydain]

Well like I said, I believe there are exceptions. Like if the doctor knows the pregnancy will cause complications. Or if the baby has some sort of defect that will make it's life completely miserable. Or rape. You guys aren't listening to that.

And also, there's no real proof of WHEN life starts. I personally believe it begins as soon as it's conceived.

And BTW - there's exceptions to everything. This wouldn't be any different.

[Tal Hawkins]

no im saying you cant say some people CAN have abortions and some cant - lol people would pay off a doctor to claim the baby had complications or claim they had been raped

some girls would do anything to get rid of a baby

but i agree on the proof of when life starts thing - i've heard you arent actually fully cinscious and aware of what you're doing until like 8 or so - that until around then ur just acting on instinct and mess

[prydain]

People pay off people in authority anyway, yet lots of things are illegal. It's the principal of the thing. And like several other people have said, there will always be murder, rape, theft, etc., yet they are not legalized. And people pay off judges to stuff occassionally to get away with it. Same thing. Yet it doesn't happen all the time.

And the age thing you're talking about - I think you mean when kids know the difference between right and wrong. Life is something else entirely, lol. I personally believe life starts at conception because of two reasons: 1.) I believe that's when you get your soul, and 2.) If you're not alive, you're dead. And something dead DOES NOT grow and develop.

[Vilandra]

See that's what YOU believe. Why should someone else have to live their life based on what YOU believe?

[prydain]

Did I say that? No.

At least not the part about when life begins or whatever. (As far as souls are concerned.) But you can't really argue that something that grows is the opposite of alive...

[Vilandra]

The point is: those are your views. (People do argue about when life begins.) Hence why the need for choice: so that each person can act according to their own beliefs.

[Anita Blake]

I can't argue with the DNA point, or that the foetus needs its mother to survive. However, surely the fact that it is growing inside the mother's body gives her the right to decide whether to keep it there or not? Also, I hardly think it's logical to compare a bunch of cells without any nerve-endings or definable personality, (and, realistically, that's what is actually terminated in the early stages) with a 2-year-old child. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this statement, but it seems to me that you're advocating that no woman should have any rights whatever as to what happens to her insides. Perhaps you also feel that they shouldn't be able to vote or work either? :

Biologically a fetus has a heartbeat at 7 days. Almost no woman knows she is pregnant until at least 3 wks after that. Most, not even until they miss their period or start having morning sickness. Generally speaking, something with a heartbeat would be considered alive. So, no, I don't see that much difference between a week old fetus and a 2 yr old besides the obvious. They both have a heartbeat, need oxygen, food, water to survive. Need a parent or guardian to survive (in the fetus' case, leaning on the mother's side but, the mother needs support as well.) There's a big difference in deciding what a woman wants to do with her body and what she gets to because, something is in her body. Its like your comparing a fetus to a tumor. Lets just cut it out 'cause its bad. A baby is not a tumor. And while on the subject of tumors, let me point out that most people don't even have surgery to remove tumors unless they are malignant. Babies are usually not malignant, they are most of the time benign. There is a big difference between telling someone don't kill that fetus that won't kill you, it'll just 'cause some discomfort and pain, but you'll be fine, and telling someone they can't vote or have any rights at all.


No, it isn't any better, I agree, but I do think you have to look realistically at the situation. Perhaps the adoption situation is different on your side of the pond, but here in the UK it's utterly dire. There are countless thousands of children who spend much of their early lives being shunted from home to home, without ever feeling any sense of belonging or being loved. That's to say nothing about the amount of sexual abuse that goes on in those places. Personally, I can't see how adding to that number is a better solution?

Personally, I can't see how killing them is gonna be a better solution. Its all well and good to speak of horrors and atrocities when you don't know the numbers or the people who lived them. What percentages of the children are sexually abused? What percentage, are orphaned as babies? What percentage are in foster care? Have you asked them if they would rather be dead than to have experienced what they experienced? How many are not productive members of society when they grow up?

Let me tell you, there is not guarantee when you have a mother or father or grandparents that you live with that it'll keep you from being abused, physically or sexually. How many kids grow up with divorced parents moving from home to home, thinking that their parents only want to use them to get back at the other. Do you think orphans are the only children who feel unloved? But, do you really believe that they would prefer death to the way they grow up? You wanna hear a sad story? PM me sometime and I'll tell you about my mom's childhood. They you'll have something to complain about.

yeah you cant really stop abortion - if it isnt done with a doctor some chic is gonna find a way to do it on her own - and those ways are even more unsafe and rather disgusting to think about

No, but we can cut down on the numbers by making it so its not legal. Really, if they made marijuana legal, do you think that would decrease the numbers? No, it would just increase them. Its like making suicide illegal. Its against the law, but you only get in trouble if you try and don't succeed. If a girl feels that desperate about it, that she would attempt something that could lead into killing herself, she needs to go to the same place suicidal people go to.


BUT the decision IMO should be hers since- as Vil said- there are risks of complications to the baby and the mother - plus she kinda does have to carry it for like err 9 months XD lol thats a hell of a long time to make someone do something they dont want to

Its about as long and insufferable as a school year. So suck it up and deal with it. You have to go to school too. Same length of time.


and plus, yeah that fetus is the POSSIBILITY of a human life, with it's own DNA and everything - but it isnt really, technically alive

Something with a heartbeat isn't alive?

See that's what YOU believe. Why should someone else have to live their life based on what YOU believe?

Why should someone else not have a life based on what you believe in?

And just in general, I totally agree in the instances of severe complications to mother and/or child, and most cases of rape that the woman should have a choice as to whether they carry it or not. But, for the rest I say, if you don't want a baby keep your legs closed. You can't get through school or life really nowadays without knowing that no contraceptive is 100%. So, both parties know, before they have sex, that a baby is a possibility. When you have sex willingingly, you're accepting the possibility and consequences that might arise. So, sex is like a contract, in which both parties, knowing how things might end up agree. Its really really easy. No sex=no baby. Sex=possibility of a baby. You don't want a baby, deal with no sex. You have sex, you could have a baby. If you think you're mature enough to have sex, than you must think you're mature enough to have a baby, 'cause your body is, and it really doesn't care what your rathers are.

[Vilandra]

But, for the rest I say, if you don't want a baby keep your legs closed. You can't get through school or life really nowadays without knowing that no contraceptive is 100%. So, both parties know, before they have sex, that a baby is a possibility. When you have sex willingingly, you're accepting the possibility and consequences that might arise. So, sex is like a contract, in which both parties, knowing how things might end up agree. Its really really easy. No sex=no baby. Sex=possibility of a baby. You don't want a baby, deal with no sex. You have sex, you could have a baby. If you think you're mature enough to have sex, than you must think you're mature enough to have a baby, 'cause your body is, and it really doesn't care what your rathers are.

It's really really easy to say that when you are 19 years old. The situation becomes more complicated the older you get. What you are suggesting is unrealistic.


I don't really care whether people who might of been aborted wish they were dead now or not - that's not the point. The last thing this world needs are more unwanted children.

[eponinethen]

I don't really care whether people who might of been aborted wish they were dead now or not - that's not the point. The last thing this world needs are more unwanted children.
Yeah this arguement really doesn't make sense. Some people wouldn't exist if their mother had decided had an abortion, and I'm sure both you and your parents are happy now they didn't. But some people wouldn't exist if their parents hadn't had unprotected sex in the backseat of a car while really drunk... sure, be glad you exist, but does that mean we should promote drunken irresponsible sex..?

All I'm saying is that it's always one in a million (or actually one in oh so many more) that exactly one specific person is born. Especially if you consider everything happening hundreds of years ago to their great great great grandmothers and fathers (ok getting off topic here).. But you get my point....

[Gollanth]

A baby is not a tumor. And while on the subject of tumors, let me point out that most people don't even have surgery to remove tumors unless they are malignant.
No, but even if they don't have them surgically removed, they still have them chemically killed, although I'm not quite sure how this proves your point.

You wanna hear a sad story? PM me sometime and I'll tell you about my mom's childhood. They you'll have something to complain about.
Thanx all the same, but I'll pass. I'm not belittling your mother's past, I just have enough sadness of my own that I don't need to take on anybody else's.

No, but we can cut down on the numbers by making it so its not legal. Really, if they made marijuana legal, do you think that would decrease the numbers? No, it would just increase them.
Exactly! No it wouldn't. You know as well as I do that women will still keep going to unauthorised places to have their pregnancies terminated and I think you've now just said that you don't really care whether they die as a result. I think you just shot yourself in the foot with your own argument....

But, for the rest I say, if you don't want a baby keep your legs closed. You can't get through school or life really nowadays without knowing that no contraceptive is 100%. So, both parties know, before they have sex, that a baby is a possibility.
That's the most sensible thing anyone here has said. I know it's often not as simple as that, but I really don't think it would hurt to push the idea of making sure you have some method of contraception before you jump into bed with your partner.

[eponinethen]

Well, especially a guy shouldn't have sex with a girl unless he could see himself having a child with her – seeing abortion is usually the woman's choice I mean.

A former classmate of mine just found out he's going to be a dad. He is 19.. The girl is 16, and when they found out they were having a baby, it was three weeks since they met the first time. He's not really too happy about becoming a dad (geeze he's such a screwed up person), but apparently she doesn't really want to have an abortion.
Now, I'm saying I'd tell them to have an abortion... But I do feel sorry for their child, and I really really do not think either of them is ready to become a parent...
(I'm not trying to make a point with this story. I'm just telling you because I recently found out about this, and it's a bit funny because we always made fun of this guy, saying he would so obviously be the first one to start a family...)

[Allycat]

I just want to say that I don't think that the "low quality of life of adopted children" is a valid argument in this discussion. If you think that the quality of their life is low, killing them is not the solution, but improving the situation in orphanages is. I mean, if a child of 2 years old loses his parents and has no other relatives, you advocate to place him/her in an orphanage, not to perform euthanasia, would you?

[Angels baby101]

see i know no matter what i couldn't give up my baby to abortion. whether it be rape or free will that i get pregnant. I think every baby deserves a chance, and if something happens to where i need to give my baby up i have family who would take that baby in a heart beat but if not and i had to give it up for adoption well... I'd be ok with that. It would hurt and i'd feel like part of me is missing... But alot of adopted children find their birth mom when they are 18 and things go back to normal. If i were to have an abortion i'd never even have that slight possiblity. Plus when i do decide to have children, I'm thinking of adopting one as well and not a baby either. an 8 or 9 year old. Because those kids hardley ever get adopted. They deserve a chance. Just like any other kid. THe thing is though even if they are in an orphanage they have a chance to experience life. The Joy's the pain, all of it. They have that right from the day they are concieved. And they should have it. My life hasn't been perfect. I've suffered. I've lived on the streets, I've had no food to eat. I've been beaten and hurt, Loved and Held. I've had good and bad, But even though i've had all that bad i wouldn't give that up for the world, because i'm just glad that i've had a chance to live to see the good and bad... and i want more people to experience it there for thats why i choose to never have an abortion cause its not my choice to say if my child should or shouldn't experience life.

[eponinethen]

It's quite a different thing to discuss if it's something you'd do, or even prefer to do, than to discuss if it should be legal..
I'm guessing this is just one of these things where you have to agree to disagree.. It is a very difficult question and just because I have the opinion that abortion should be legal, that it's a choice and yada yada.. doesn't mean I like it or think it's a great thing or the perfect solution.
Ok I'm just saying, it's hard to discuss something like this.. it's not like you'll easily change someone's opinion about it..

[Vilandra]

Exactly. Being pro choice doesn't mean pro abortion.

:)

[Tal Hawkins]

actually btw if u made marijuana legal u WOULD cut down on use because for one thing: it would make u BAD to do it - for another if u tax it and make it cost more, ur set

when prohibition ended the consumption of alcohol dropped noticeably, the same would happen with marijuana - and no i have never smoked marijuana at all =P

and in response to the way back post by someone about their response to gollanth saying that u couldnt ever stop abortion even if u did legislate against it and we might as well legalize murder and rape - yeah umm u can stop or do something about murder and rape

u might not even be able to tell some chic stuckj something inside herself to get rid of a baby and if u did..:: shakes head :: lets get u raped by ur father and see if u wanna have the kid- dunno, this is all eff'ed up

the father should have a say but the mother should have the final say - each has dreams and wants and wishes and should be considered

and btw that fetus is not human - it doesnt have personality, memory, feel pain - it isnt human, what makes us human isnt our DNA it's who we are and what we feel and think

that fetus cant do any of those - but it can ruin the parents lives

i think abortion should be legal - i wouldnt ask the mother of my child to have an abortion even if i gto a girl pregnant right now

i might not get to go to college and i might not get to go to Alabama for law school, but hey that sucks right? i would take responsibility if she would have it- but final say so would be hers

and allycat - the case of a child who loses it's parents at 2 who goes to an orphanage or relative rather than euthanasia is totally different from a fetus inside a mother

Addition: totally agree with Vil - let everyone do whatever they want according to what THEY believe- but dont make everyone follow what you believe. Legalize abortion and let people choose for themselves.

[eponinethen]

actually btw if u made marijuana legal u WOULD cut down on use because for one thing: it would make u BAD to do it - for another if u tax it and make it cost more, ur set

when prohibition ended the consumption of alcohol dropped noticeably, the same would happen with marijuana
Well, that's not really a fact is it.. I know a lot of people believe it would weork this way. I however am not so sure, I know I'd rather smoke marijuana if it was legal, seriously.. ok not the point but.. I'm just not so sure it would work this way..

Addition: totally agree with Vil - let everyone do whatever they want according to what THEY believe- but dont make everyone follow what you believe. Legalize abortion and let people choose for themselves.
Well, I'm quite sure no-one meant to say abortion should be legal and forced on people ;)

[Allycat]

u might not even be able to tell some chic stuckj something inside herself to get rid of a baby and if u did..:: shakes head :: lets get u raped by ur father and see if u wanna have the kid- dunno, this is all eff'ed up

Well, in special cases like rape or in cases where the mother's life is in danger by a pregancy, there could be exceptions.

and btw that fetus is not human - it doesnt have personality, memory, feel pain - it isnt human, what makes us human isnt our DNA it's who we are and what we feel and think

Here's where we have a real problem... can you PROVE that it is in fact not human? Can you prove it has neither feelings nor personality? According to most biologists and the US Senate from the moment of conception a foetus is a member of the species Homo Sapiens.

and allycat - the case of a child who loses it's parents at 2 who goes to an orphanage or relative rather than euthanasia is totally different from a fetus inside a mother

Of course, it's different... the underlying thought in both cases is that you kill someone for their own good... I think our problem is with the definition of "someone".

[Tal Hawkins]

thats exactly what they were saying - go back tp page..2 or 3 - go look =p after Vil said it shouldnt be

and while it ISNT a fact the use the marijuana would drop if it were legal and taxed - it IS a fact about when Prohibition ended the consumption of alcohol dropping considerably

[Allycat]

Prohibition cannot be compared to marijuana... first alcohol had been legal before prohibition whereas marijuana hasn't... well, it might've but nobody alive today remembers that day... besides... Prohibition happened during an entirely different era... you can't compare the Interbellum with the Post-60s societies.


Also, why are we suddenly talking about drugs and alcohol?

[prydain]

Also, why are we suddenly talking about drugs and alcohol?


I'm not sure...I think we were comparing drug use to abortion or something? :confused:

[Vilandra]

Well, in special cases like rape or in cases where the mother's life is in danger by a pregancy, there could be exceptions.

Saying that there could be "exceptions" doesn't really make any sense. The fetus is the same entity no matter the circumstances of its conception, so saying that it's okay in those cases sort of invalidates your argument.

And another thing: every pregnancy is a risk to the mother. Any woman who has a baby could die in the process - it's not always something that you can predict in the first trimester.

:)

[Mat MacManus]

I'll always see this particular subject as something that can be argued by either side and neither one of them can be considered altogether right or wrong for their opinion. That said, I'm strongly pro-choice. Perhaps a paradox, but that's how I feel.