Same Sex Marriage

[Angels baby101]

Ok I think this should totally be allowed, i mean i'm not bi or lesbian i just think marriage is about love, i mean if you love someone of the same sex then you love them, you cant tell your heart who to choose and for them to sit there and say its wrong. Well that in its own is wrong. People should have the choice. If a guy and another guy wanna marry then so be it and if a girl and a girl wanna have a child together well why not? Whats so wrong i mean just because someones parents choose that lifestyle doesn't mean that child is going to as well.

WHats everyone elses view on this ?

[prydain]

Wow we are totally getting into every controversial subject huh?

[Angels baby101]

lol i guess so i dunno you wanted to post so i'm giving ya subjects lmao alil deep for 5 am but

[prydain]

lol.

Well this is a strange subject to me...I don't really have a view on it. I have one or two gay friends at all...not even THEY care about this subject much.

[Angels baby101]

Ok i might be strange but i just hate how the government tells us who we are supposed to love!

[Gollanth]

L-o-n-g time overdue, I say. :)

[prydain]

Do we have any gay or lesbians on this board? Sorry if that sounds blunt, lol, but I was just curious...every board I join I usually make a few online buddies who are. So...just wondering. lol

[Angels baby101]

I've experimented but i'm not lesbian or bi really.

[prydain]

I'm not, either, but I have a friend who tells me my life won't be complete until I try something...which I don't agree with, lol. But I don't know what will happen.

Remember the shoutbox, Vilandra? hahahaha

[Angels baby101]

Well i have alot of Gay and lesbian friends and they are great, but i dunno the whole lesbian thing just didn't do anything for me, i love guys to much even if they are a pain

[Allycat]

I'm totally in favour of Same Sex Marriages. Like most Dutch, I'm usually not very proud of my country... but the fact that we were the first to allow it doesn't make me feel a tad of pride!

[Summers Blood]

I don't have a problem with it! I don't see why same sex couples shouldn't have the same rights as other couples. I think it's unfair that up until recently they haven't been able to have joint pensions etc.

If you love someone it shouldn't matter whether you are hetrosexual, or homosexual, the feelings are the same.

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't really have an opinion on it, so because of that I suppose I would say that its fine, I mean it would not effect me. I think they should be allowed to get married, The only problem I could see is that it actually say's it in the bible that it is wrong, now I think religion is stupid (No one throw rocks at me!) But since it is in there I can see how the church can argue against it, But I think the government should allow it though. (I also think the church should get with the times and allow it!)

[Vilandra]

I haven't really looked into the why's of why not to allow it so I'm not sure I can comment. The only thing I can think of it people just marrying each other for the benefits of being married. (My one friend is a Finnish citizen, and she jokes if they ever allow ss marriage in the US, we can get married so I get an EU passport and she gets a US one lol.)

[teentitan]

I believe it is not the issue of same sex marriage that what all the fuss is about. It's the definition of marriage that is in question. The traditional definition is man/woman. With the new laws it is now man/man, woman/woman and man/woman. Gays and lesbians in Canada have adoption rights, joint pension rights and marrying in a church IF the church agrees. I think what the fear is that eventually the church (most likely Catholic) is going to be taken to court and ordered to perform a same sex marriage which is against that religions beliefs. That will be the ultimate intrusion of the government dictating to all religion's. I have watched this issue evolve over the last 5 years and this is the next step in the evolution, so to speak. Currently there is a case in BC where a church hall is being sued for not allowing a wedding reception for a same sex couple. Thoughts?

[Vilandra]

Ah that's an interesting point I didn't think of.

That I think is completely justified (for a church to refuse to perform ss marriages). Hey, it may not be what I believe, or what you believe, but when it's a tenet of the church in question, you can't legislate them to change that. It's like the church not condoning gay priests. Well, yeah I think a gay man should be allowed to be a priest. But you can't expect the church to allow something to go on within it that they consider a sin.

Work to change the doctrine, yes. Legislation from the government, hell no.

[teentitan]

But if a church changes it's doctrine is it religious evolution or is it because government legislation is forcing the change to doctrine so that religion does not face the wrath of the justice system and a monetary loss?

[Vilandra]

Well hopefully it's the former. lol.

[prydain]

If a church changes doctrine than it's not exactly "religious evolution". It's almost always more the case that they're trying to fit in better better with what society thinks it right or wrong - and I don't respect that very much.

[Allycat]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you on this point. We, in the Netherlands, have a lot of problems with Islamic youth, because there is a culture clash with the European Culture. And I think that the government has every right to interferre with church if the church violates any laws. Discrimination is in the constitution, so surely they ought to make sure that churches don't discriminate.

[prydain]

I think those are two different things...

I'm not saying I like how churches deal with the matter, but you cannot force them to change their teachings. If it is someone's belief than it's a sin there's nothing you can do about it. And you shouldn't, simply because it's infringing on their beliefs and all that.

The only time government should interfere with religion is when it causes serious harm to society or an individual.

[XDruX]

ok, first I'm totally for. Since each democracy claims the Equality of rights I don't know why there is a discrimination towards gay couple. I mean, they have the same rights as straigh couples to choose wether they want to get married or not? I don't this is a polemical subject? All humans are equal in rights right?

Second, I don't think the governement should interfere in the Church way to deal with this matter.
State and church are two different things so I agree with prydain on this point.

[teentitan]

Also if you look at history it took a long time to take religion's control out of government affairs so for government to interfere with church affairs would be hypocritical. Wouldn't it?

[eponinethen]

Also if you look at history it took a long time to take religion's control out of government affairs so for government to interfere with church affairs would be hypocritical. Wouldn't it?
Uh, sorry this doesn't make any sense to me. The government is there to make laws and rule the country and all that stuff, the chruch is not (these days). That the chruch shouldn't have to follow the law, and should be allowed to discriminate.. Well again, it doesn't make any sense to me.
I agree that state and church are defintely two separated things today and should stay that way. But, that doesn't mean I think the church should be allowed to discriminate people in whatever way they want. I'm definitely with AllyCat on this:
I think that the government has every right to interferre with church if the church violates any laws. Discrimination is in the constitution, so surely they ought to make sure that churches don't discriminate.

And also:
Do we have any gay or lesbians on this board?
Yup, lesbian right here.... ;)

[teentitan]

If the state forces a church to marry a same sex couple so as not to violate their constitutional rights to marry then isn't the state violating the constitutional rights of the churches religious beliefs about marriage? This is the "sticky" part to this conversation/subject.

[prydain]

If marriage was legal they wouldn't HAVE to have it in a church...

[eponinethen]

If the state forces a church to marry a same sex couple so as not to violate their constitutional rights to marry then isn't the state violating the constitutional rights of the churches religious beliefs about marriage? This is the "sticky" part to this conversation/subject.
In a way – yes of course. I mean I do understand how you're thinking and all but I guess it depends.. I mean usually when you say "get married" (at least in Sweden) – you'd mean in a church. 'Cause that's the way most people do it. And there are many gay (for instance) christian people. To not let them get married in their own church... yes I'd think that would be wrong.

But ok, I don't care that much about the church part of this discussion to be honest. At the moment in Sweden gay people can't get married at all. They can get like almost married, but not really. And I really really do not see the point of that. I don't see how people can care about whp someone else marries?
And sure, some people say "marriage" isn't really that important. You can still have a great relationship so what's the point of marriage, why do they so desperately need that? Well, I can't answer for everyone but I know I want to get married, some day, and it basicly sucks that I can't (for no good reason at all).

(Sorry, rant, too tired..)

[Tal Hawkins]

well i'm not really religious but there's jsut something about the whole being married thing and declaring your love for each other before God and all your relatives and saying you want to be together forever..lol just kinda gets people ya think ?

and i definitely think it should be legal for gays and lesbians to get married - doesnt hurt me any and hey if they love each other they can do whatever as far as im concerned

i dont have any right to tell them how to live or that God is going to smite them er whatever - and as for the forcing a church to marry them - im sure there are ministers or preachers or someone out there who WILL marry gay people

but i agree on the fact churches shouldnt be forced - it would be wrong

[Vilandra]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you on this point. We, in the Netherlands, have a lot of problems with Islamic youth, because there is a culture clash with the European Culture. And I think that the government has every right to interferre with church if the church violates any laws. Discrimination is in the constitution, so surely they ought to make sure that churches don't discriminate.
So I shouldn't have to follow any of the doctrines of a religion to be a member of that religion? Why shouldn't a religion expect that it's followers adhere to its rules?

[teentitan]

Eponinethen don't apologize; what you said did not sound like a rant to me. You made some great points. In Canada there is some churches that will marry same sex couples but the majority get hitched at City Hall. The issue in Canada is the definition of marriage not the legality. Our government within 18 months flipped their decision on the definition and that is what has churces worried. Besides when you do find that person you want to spend the rest of your life with come to Canada for your honeymoon and get married here. A lot of people have done this.
I have enjoyed this thread so far because it is refreshing that there is no "venom" in the interaction. You wouldn't believe how many times I have been frustrated when this topic comes up and instead of sharing ideas and thoughts vulgarity and hatred comes out. That's when my neanderthal radar goes off and I excuse myself from the room until the conversation changes. Thanks again everyone.

[eponinethen]

^ Thing is that if I was in a room/chat with a bunch of angry lesbians who said churches were evil for not wanting to marry gay couples – I'd argue your point of this whole thing just 'cause those peopel bug me so much.. I'm weird that way.

And yeah, I was sort of dating a girl in Canada, so that would've worked out fine if I would've married her, lol...

So I shouldn't have to follow any of the doctrines of a religion to be a member of that religion? Why shouldn't a religion expect that it's followers adhere to its rules?
Of course you should. It's when their doctrines clash with the law I think it's more of a problem...

In Sweden we recently had this huge thing when Pastor Green said a bunch of anti-gay stuff in a church.. which made all of Sweden really upset.. If you haven't, check out this awesome site btw: http://www.godhatessweden.com

[Allycat]

If the state forces a church to marry a same sex couple so as not to violate their constitutional rights to marry then isn't the state violating the constitutional rights of the churches religious beliefs about marriage? This is the "sticky" part to this conversation/subject.


Almost. See, while the sexuality is harmless, the religious beliefs discriminate, on this ground I think you can say that religious freedom is subordinate to freedom of sexuality, not on all points, but on this point certainly.

[Gollanth]

Personally, as I've mentioned on the "Religion" thread, I'm not bothered about the Church side of all this, but it does seem to be the word "marriage" that has everybody up in arms.

I ought to point out - as somebody who had a very minor involvement in the drafting of the Act - it goes to great lengths specifically not to mention the word "marriage" at all. It has been introduced in order to give a legal basis to same-sex partnerships and to confer the same rights and privileges upon those entering the civil partnership as those entering a marriage are already entitled to.

Believe me when I tell you that it took almost 4 years of arguing and debating with the Church authorites and the more conservative elements of the Government and Opposition, before a title for the new basis could be agreed. Nobody - but nobody - would allow the word marriage to appear anywhere in the Bill.

Also, no Church can be forced into conducting a civil partnership ceremony since, by its very nature it is not a religious ceremony. If an individual priest/vicar is willing to conduct a "blessing" then so be it, but the blessing is not the ceremony that confers the legality upon the partnership, so this argument is a bit spurious.

Oh, and actually, at least here in the UK, it's not possible to separate the Church and the State, since The Queen is the titular head of the Church.

[Tal Hawkins]

there is some church official out there who would be willing to marry same sex couples im sure =P

and if same sex couples are going to be 'life partners' anyway why NOT let them marry ?

does it hurt any of us to let them be happy? do we have any right to say they CANT get married ? i personally dont agree with forcing a church official to wed them but they can probably find one who is willing to do so - be my guest i say

[Vilandra]

The Catholic Church will not marry a Catholic to a non-Catholic without a lot of jumping through hoops (and some won't at all). Your child cannot be baptized into the Catholic Church if you were not married in the Catholic Church. So why is no one up in arms about that?

I don't know the arguments against same sex marriage (excepts for maybe people exploiting it but I don't know if that's a real one) and frankly, I don't care enough to do the research. But I'm sure it's not so simple as the fact that they're gay, because, yeah, there's no reason to not allow civil ceremonies. But I'm not going to say I think or don't think it should be legalized without knowing both sides. Which I don't.

[eponinethen]

Well, as I see it, there can't be any real arguements (if they aren't arguements against marriage all together). I don't see the difference at all between man-woman marriage and same-sex marriage, so how could there be arguements against one of them..?

[Cordelia Chase*]

Do we have any gay or lesbians on this board? Sorry if that sounds blunt, lol, but I was just curious...every board I join I usually make a few online buddies who are. So...just wondering. lol


Well you could say that about me, but I consider myself bi.


This isnt something I would really be thinking about cause hey, I'm only 16! But hey, I've never thought about this subject that much. I guess I'm alright with it. I can't control anyone's life. Like you're born the way you are or you like somethings better than others! Bu they, its there life so I guess. Not trying to get too religious but isnt it in the bible that God...if you believe....made us in his image? So why is being gay, bi, lesbian a sin???

[prydain]

Well you could say that about me, but I consider myself bi.


This isnt something I would really be thinking about cause hey, I'm only 16! But hey, I've never thought about this subject that much. I guess I'm alright with it. I can't control anyone's life. Like you're born the way you are or you like somethings better than others! Bu they, its there life so I guess. Not trying to get too religious but isnt it in the bible that God...if you believe....made us in his image? So why is being gay, bi, lesbian a sin???


I think it meant more in appearance and knowledge, not sexuality, lol. :p

Open to personal interpretation, I guess.

[eponinethen]

But there aer still a lot of Christan gay people. So I guess they must be of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with being gay. Well, and I guess there are of course a lot of straight Christian people who have nothing against homosexualty either... So...

[Gollanth]

That's something that has often puzzled me too. I have a gay friend who is a vicar - and a very committed vicar at that. I've tried to get a straight answer out of him about how he reconciles his religion with the fact that he's supposed to be committing a mortal sin each time he plays around with his bf..... Needless to say, I haven't got an answer yet, but I'll keep trying. :)

[eponinethen]

Lol. Well, many people have a quite healthy view on the Bible, saying it was written a very very long time ago and that some things that where considered wrong then can't be considered the same way in our society today because of how much it has changed and so on.

[Anita Blake]

I'm in favor of ss marriage. I don't feel that anyone should be punished for the way that they feel or who they give their heart too. Marriage is a man-made ceremony. The definition is also man-made. Its not a ceremony handed down from God. I respect how the church feels and I agree that Government and the Church should remain separate and not interfere with each other, but I also feel that the Government should have more power than the Church. I don't believe either could exist without the other, but I believe faith is more of an inner thing, than a tangible entity that you can label. I think of churches as more of an organization to focus devotion more than any sort of establishment created to control people. Which I think is how a lot of churches like to act. A sort of separate branch of government. I don't want to force any church to give false blessings or to integrate something they believe is wrong into their written beliefs, but I don't think they have the right to tell people how to live their lives. I think that people have the right to happiness. And that should be the belief upheld above all others.

[Mat MacManus]

Whether or not two gay people get married doesn't effect me. Marriage is for people of all religions in this country (as well as the atheists) first and foremost a legal binding contract. Don't tell me that it's against God's wishes or whatnot because that's what your religion says. The Catholic faith holds that all non-Catholic marriages are false so does that mean those marriages are outlawed? Of course not.

If people would just butt-out of other people's lives this wouldn't even have to be an issue.